Classifieds and Killers
Interesting Wikipedia entry, Lonely Heart Killers, lists high-profile cases of killers using print classified ads.
Now, it’s horrible to think of craigslist being used in connection with any violent crime whatsoever, let alone a murder. One crime is too many, and we must do everything in our power to eliminate it.
However, when critics rush to tar craigslist as especially dangerous, it’s important to put things in perspective. craigslist users have posted more than 1.15 BILLION classified ads to date, easily 1000x the combined total ever posted to the print publications involved in all of these “print ad murders”.
Anyone demanding that craigslist use the same protections that print classifieds have employed should be careful what they’re wishing for — because the incidence of violent crime in connection with print classifieds is clearly far, far higher than it is for craigslist.
May 7th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
To demand that craigslist should remove all erotic ads would create more problems than solve.
First, I know someone that practices therapeutic bodywork and used to do outcalls to homes and residents. This was many years before craigslist became a widely used medium from which to gather resources for such services. The therapist always used the only form of advertising known at the time which was print - her local newspaper.
One day she was called to someone’s home where she provided her session work and just when she had finished the person’s work, she turned to begin packing up her things and the person came behind her and started to strangle her and assault her. He continued to do so for over half an hour and finally the therapist was able to convince him to let her go.
It should be noted that the therapist this happened to who posted her ad in the classified section of her local newspaper had to provide her photo id and certification just to post her ad for her services. The requirements the publisher placed on her, the advertiser, did nothing to prevent this crime from happening. There are criminals everywhere.
So craigslist has nothing to do with this outrageous claim that removing the erotic section would have any bearing on criminal behavior. Criminals are everywhere and use the newspaper as well as the Internet - not to mention the streets and clubs where they meet people all the time.
Another important point to make is that if the erotic section were eliminated that would only drive the hundreds of erotic ads over to the therapeutic services section which many already use in violation every day as it is. Other types of services not related to bodywork are almost drowned out daily as it is with the plethora of erotic related ads that are placed. Many legit massage therapists, both male and female, have been complaining that ever since the implementation of the charged erotic ads, that more and more callers to their own legit ads are harassing them for sexual acts and other illegitimate offers outside the realm of therapeutic bodywork because of the increased number of ads posted daily on the therapeutic side. It’s better to leave the erotic section where it is so there aren’t more problems that will escalate as a result of making abrupt and unwarranted changes by eliminating the erotic section.
Moreover it’s the responsibility of each person to screen the callers to their ads on whatever basis they should to ensure their own safety. There are people that post the rehoming of animals in the pets section, for instance, that wisely ask to meet in a public place first and they may even meet the animal they wish to adopt in this manner.
In conclusion, there are other classified ads sites out there that allow all types of postings, including erotic section ads and no one is clamoring to demand they remove the section, yet their ads are used everyday by millions of users as well.
Craigslist has always posted safety tips on their site and if anything, I would only suggest that there be a notice of those tips with a link to them, posted plainly on every city’s erotic section.
Craigslist serves a purpose and has obviously demonstrated that it serves that purpose well over the years and shouldn’t be singled out.
May 8th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
To decide that freedom has limits is to decide there is no freedom of speech. Caveat Emptor is an important concept. It means, literally: Let the buyer beware. If you have ever bought or sold livestock, you don’t need to be told that . For the rest of the world: If it sounds to good to be true, it is. Too good to be true that is. One must mind one’s own affairs. If you don’t know someone, don’t meet them in a dark alley or deserted parking lot. If someone is offering to give you money, love and fame, ask yourself a question before buying the farm. Why?
Please don’t be so lonely that you will risk your life. It ain’t worth it. And don’t blame craigslist. And, whatever you do, don’t trust government to help you in any way. I have a saying: “If government is the answer, it is a stupid question.” I believe history bears me out.
May 8th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
[…] CEO Jim Buckmaster argues that it’s important to put these episodes in perspective. On a recent blog post he wrote, “craigslist users have posted more than 1.15 BILLION classified ads to date, easily […]
May 9th, 2009 at 11:56 am
I have been a psychotherapist for nearly 30 years, and I can assure you that predators need no provocation, whether print, broadcast, or otherwise. They usually find their prey by cruising or spying. I would also add that they are absolutely untreatable.
May 9th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
OUT OF CONTEXT implications, as it seemed to me was implied by the above above poster.
The “easily” did not refer to the posting of Craigslist ads, but to the fact that numbers of CL ads published easily outstrips those published in print, yet the print ads have a far far higher incidence of violent crime in connection with their ads.
May 10th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Since when has the government become our Nanny? It’s up to me whether I want to risk getting killed, posting or answering an ad. It’s MY choice. The risk is MINE. This is not how America was built. Where is it going, this Nanny state? I do not want to live here anymore.
May 10th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Dear Craigslist,
I’m writing to give my full and unconditional support to your company. I think that what craigslist is doing by giving free classifieds ads is helping the community big time. Craigslist has shown the world that the difference is that is not greedy and this is not common in our world.
In this equation where the community is the big winner, the biggest looser is the media that has lost millions of millions of dollars on their paid classified business. This is the main and only reason why the media will try their best to put craigslist as the bad guys. Many of the articles I have read about this unfortunate event, where the media tries in someway or another to put the blame in craigslist comes from newspapers that have classifieds ads about erotic services and nobody says anything.
I believe in freedom of speech , and I honestly believe that anyone in this world should be free to do whatever they want unless is harming someone else. Is very clear to me that by just giving a free way of communication will not hurt anyone unless that communication is used to harm someone, and craigslist has shown that has mechanisms to defend this individuals.
thanks and please don’t give up. Time will tell that you were the right guys in town.
Sincerely
JM
May 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Well said Kay, In my opinion Craigslist has no bearing of responsibility in regards to this. I feel very sorry that this women loss her life. The point should be a independent contractor doing messages at a private hotel needs to vet customers more thoroughly. Nonetheless if Craigslist becomes a premium service, another “craigslist”, from another country will pop up, what is the government going to do about that.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:44 am
I didn’t even know Craigslist had an adult area on their site, but it is a shame that they have decided to cave-in to “pressure”. Buckmaster is another sad example of today’s American softie - a generation that meekly sits in the corner with eyes lowered instead of standing up and fighting for their rights. He deserves to have his business taken away from him.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Craigslist is an enabler for prostitution. Just like McDonalds selling artery-clogging food to the masses enables people to eat crappily and eventually die. While they are not the aggressor by any means, they share responsibility.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:32 am
These attorney generals are simply politicians posturing for PR. They are also smoking crack. If they believe that eliminating the erotic section will stop illicit behavior, then they need to have a roundtable discussion with their neighborhood social workers, pyschotherapists and police. There are wacko predators everywhere and they will continue one way or another in their pursuits. If the AG’s target is prostitution then they need to revisit their objective of social engineering through restrictive and worthless laws and face the reality of the world’s oldest profession. Several of the earlier comments ring very true. Other sites will and have cropped up to provide this bulletin board service. Many far from the reach of political hacks gaming for higher office. In the meantime they chip away at constitutional rights of freedom of speech and ultimately do a diservice to the very community they a sworn to protect. Hopefully Craigslist will not submit to silence like a recalcitrant monk being disciplined by some hypocritical superior. Thank you Elliot Spitzer.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:38 am
The news that CL is taking down the adult adds, really steams me. How can they do this to CL and not make people remove the same ads from local newspapers, the little news papers given for free in most coffee shops, the phone books…..
I think what you all shoudl have done is shut down CL in the states fgoign after you. Then there would have been an outcry from their constituents and the politico bosses who probably use your ads more than most people would have backed down. If MS woudl have done this it woudl cost them allot less. Now every politician who wants to make a name for themselves will know you will back down.
I think you will lose more in the long run with the approach you have taken.
When I grab the freetimes to see what is happening, I am forced to look at ads equally bad and sometimes worse. I am not forced to look at yours. Now all those people will post even more in the areas I do look at, like the thera section.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Oh well, Craigslist. You were relevant while it lasted. So much for the whole free speech and free country thing. You’ve given in and given up. You could have taken a stance, told the government to go screw themselves - but no. You bowed down like all corporations do. My love affair with you has ended.
May 13th, 2009 at 11:27 am
AGs are politicians. They make their bones on latching on to high profile cases such as this. Politically, I am so sick and tired of the reactionary attitude that American politicians have. Something bad happens, so the government thinks it’s their duty to intervene…..and politicians WANT to intervene because it provides them with evidence that they are doing something worthwhile. Evidence that - come re-election time - they can hold up and say “Look at me - I shut down Craigslist and now the world is a much safer place!! Yay me!”. Well, that’s a load of crap.
The strategy of taking away the medium to solve the problem has simply never worked. Look at gun control…..anti-gun politicians think that if you take guns away from the law abiding citizens, that violent crimes will stop. Doesn’t take much of a genius to figure out that criminals will acquire (and use) guns regardless of what the law says….I mean, they are criminals after all. Look at the D.C. gun ban - crime WENT UP when that was in place. Not a very effective solution if you ask me.
The same flawed logic is applied here. You may as well outlaw cars because of all the rampant deaths that come from car related accidents and violence. The AGs think that by taking the medium away, that somehow the predators will suddenly have no outlet for their crimes…..and that’s just not true. Cars and guns don’t kill people….and neither does Craigslist.
Prosecute the laws that are in place, and start to develop some PROACTIVE strategies for addressing crime. This reactionary and alarmist approach to these issues is just political crap that infringes on fundamental American rights.
Craigslist - you rock and have my support completely.
May 13th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
“McQuan Says: Craigslist is an enabler for prostitution. Just like McDonalds selling artery-clogging food to the masses enables people to eat crappily and eventually die. While they are not the aggressor by any means, they share responsibility.”
That doesn’t make any sense! McDonalds shares the responsibility? People have a free choice to eat crappy and die or not. Some people are just easily influenced by advertising and tasty calorie filled burgers. People will eat crap that tastes good. end.
sex driven and desperate people are the enablers for prostitution. It will be here with our without craigslist.
May 13th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Why can’t we take responsibility for our own actions and safety without government intervention and grandstanding by politicians. Craigslist provides a great and cost effective service. Keep it up. Don’t let big brother screw up another good idea. Just another example of the news media and our politicians blowing an isolated and unusual incident way out of proportion and attempting to use scare tactics to control our lives. We’ve seen and experienced the disastrous results of allowing the clowns in Washington too much control - more taxes and less personal freedom. While they lie, cheat, steal and use their public office for private gain they try to piously make laws for their constituants. Vote them out ! All of them.
May 13th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
I think it sucks how Craigslist is getting beat up over the erotic services section. Frankly, I love that section. Damn that piece of shit Philip Markoff!
May 14th, 2009 at 8:05 am
[…] oversight to keep them safe. Forget claims that “use of craigslist classified is associate with far lower rates of violent crime than print classifieds,” or that “Community moderation as exemplified by [the craigslist] […]
May 14th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Facilitating prostitution and facilitating violence against prostitutes are two different things. By using moral panic about violence to claim that Craigslist is especially facilitating prostitution has the effect of facilitating violence against prostitutes instead of reducing prostitution. As long as prostitution is illegal or disapproved of socially, violence will be facilitated, as then prostitutes will not be able to claim protection of the police against attackers or thieves, for fear of being arrested themselves when they complain of victimization. When computers and the Internet are not used to verify identity, as in the system the AGs agreed to with Craigslist, but instead it moves to some other anonymous, underground system, then the harmful effects of prostititution will increase, such as street-walking instead of inside private rooms. The prostitutes will be criminals along with the pimps who will have to protect them instead of police, and there will be more attempts to extort money from them and push drugs. Clients will be exposed to risk of theft from sex workers.
In Rhode Island, where the first ad appeared that the AGs complain of, prostitution is not illegal inside, only on the street. Ads for masseuse and lapdancer will of course continue under any system.
The AGs complain of prostitution by minors and trafficking of immigrants. Congress is paying the FBI to use Craigslist to investigate and with expensive raids try to do something about those problems. It appears that this is a device to increase police power, as the moral panic about these two problems of white slavery is far overblown and could be handled with normal police activity, helped by Craigslist.
I am sorry to see Craigslist give in to these legal threats. It impairs the freedom of speech of everyone when this happens. It harms everyone except the politicians who promote this moral panic. The media and Craigslist management and independent academics such as at UNLV should follow up on this story in six months and see if the AG policy will improve anything or instead make things worse as I predict.
Sex workers and clients should consider alternate online systems of reputation and authentication to reduce harm from such activity. As long as prostitution is illegal the police will attack those systems too and violence will continue and increase.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Anyone partaking in the crackdown of Craigslist does not see the whole picture behind the scenes. I do understand terrible tragedies have occured and it is absolutely devastating to all parties involved..HOWEVER, it is entirely unfair to make Craigslist the scapegoat. There are no statistics showing crime has went up because of Craigslist! Unfortunately, there will be crime taking place even without the Craigslist erotic section. Craigslist has put different things in place to make it safer for everyone’s use. Due to Craigslist, it has made it easier for more sting operations to take place to arrest those involved with child trafficking and forced prostitution. In fact, I feel that the medical student who killed may not have even been caught if it wasn’t for Craigslist being able to trace him. Until yestetday, you had to provide identifying information to post in the erotic section. If someone responed to an ad through e-mail, their IP address could be traced…..Whether or not someone feels prostitution is immoral and the fact it is illegal; it will always be around. It has been around since ancient times and will always happen no matter what!
The medical student who killed is sick and would have ended up killing with or without Craigslist. Most likely, he would have obtained a streetwalker and there would have been little way to trace it. Seeing this was not an isolated incident with him, he most likely would continue kiiling and robbing for years. One persoan being killed is absolutely horrible, but I am thankful to Craigslist, that this man actually responded to an ad where a girl was working at a hotel, so he was seen on the surveillance camera at the hotel and was traced by accounts from Craigslist. Partly due to Craigslist and of course to the police, this man was caught and no further killings took place.
Taking out the erotic section is not helping prevent prostitution as it will happen elsewhere. Most importantly, it will not stop violent crime and forced prostitution; It will now be harder to trace because more will be happening behind the scenes or on the streets. It is unfortunate, so many were coming down so hard on Craigslist…….
I say legalize prostitution and make it safer for everyone invloved; also, it will generate more taxes for the government. Let’s focus on actual dangerous crime. Sex between two consenting adults who are of legal age should be their own business. Bottom line, my body, my business..For Let’s be real, we live in a country where abortion is legal because supposedly it is a woman’s right! We are allowed to kill unborn children and it is not a crime but compensation for sex is illegal and such a big deal……Does that make any sense? ….The next time a maniac kills an escort, etc. it will be in a back alley or at someone’s home with little or no evidence….
I’m just sorry Craigslist is taking blame for everyday crime that is going to continue occurring.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
To: Fr. Heyward Ewart, Ph.D., I totally agree; predators will find their victims, one way or another. True, Craigslist makes it easier to find victims in a way, but it also provides a n easier way for the predators to be caught. There will be the same amount of crime occurring even without the erotic section. The government felt pressure to do something because there was so much media attention on crimes stemming from Craigslist.. We need to take funding and focus efforts on parental education in early years of childhood, drug busts, human trafficing and predators. If the law would put more effort and time into stopping drugs and child predators rather than worrying about what consenting adults were doing, this country would be a better place.
I understand those who are against prostitution from a moral standpoint as I believe in everyone’s right to their own opinion…..I am also thankful there are laws in place and enforced to protect us. However, I strongly disagree with the government telling me as an adult what to do with my own body as long as I’m not hurting others. It is also absurd that there is no longer going to be an erotic section. It is a designated area that no one has to look at if they do not want to. Bottom line, you have to be careful everywhere whether you are an escort or a lawyer. be weary of people you meet at the bar or work. Look at that horrible story in Hamden, Ct where a woman gave a ride to a co-worker and was brutally assaulted! Violence can happen anywhere at anytime. You have to be careful. I have been an adult provider, on and off for some time now. I have a job and attend college but need more money at times to supplement my income. Whether you feel that is wrong or not, I will tell you that I have never encountered an act of violence once doing this. I have actually been exposed to violence in my personal life. I was walking one evening {no, not doing a stroll:-0} when a robbery was made against me……YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL EVERYWHERE. It’s unfortunate there are sick people out there. However, I like to believe there is more good than are bad.. Becareful who you leave your kids with and be aware of your surroundings everywhere. I would suggest always carrying atleast mace with you as it has saved me before. Wishing everyone the best and hoping the law will take more right direction in preventing and prosecuting violence and continue helping to make us all safe. They are doing what they feel is the right thing by pressuring Craigslist to shut down the erotic section but it goes way beyond that. There were several instances where people were robbed or even killed meeting someone from the childcare section and others. It also happens on dating sites……..It happens at bars….Children are molested by predators posting nanny ads on the internet….Should we shut down the whole internet? Thsi is offtopic but i urge every parent to monitor their neighborhood at familywatchdog.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Dumb and dumber to go after CL. Leave it alone.
These pols just wanna make a splash.
Dumb.
Thanks, Neal
May 15th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
This world is full of wrong doers and the ones that want to do the right thing. The people who are trying to do the right thing (so they think) need someone to blame because heaven forbid they open their door and realize that half of their neighborhood are the wrong doers. By making this a big deal all that is being done is bring more attention to where it doesn’t belong. Like I have read in some of the other posting you could have a killer, murderer, or a rapist in your home at anytime and even maybe several times. One of them could even be your best friend or your parents best friend. Predators ARE everywhere I mean really you want to shut down craigslist because you say it is permitting or inviting violence, well maybe we should shut down ALL the CATHOLIC churches across the world because of all the bishops & priest raping children. Just remember you could of invited the wrong doer into your house anytime all it takes is once. Even helping someone out that has no place to live, you rent them a room in your home you have kids come to find out your teenage child is being raped and threatened at the same time, “you tell anyone about this and I will kill your family and let you live so you can live the rest of your life knowing they are dead because of you.” this is things that people use. so what do you do as a teenager keep your mouth shut until you have a nervous break down or something. You see this happened to me as a teenager. So see even the most kindness jester/or helping someone in need can lead to a voilent crime of some sort. So the people that point their fingers and need to blame other people, website, movies, video games, etc if that makes you feel better about your life thats OK but maybe you should take a LONG LOOK around maybe you have one in your house/or life.
from the once terrified teenage girl.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
You clowns who voted for Obama are the cause of our rights slowly being taken away.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Bill Klinton, please explain how you’re connecting the dots on that one. Or are they even dots at all? Maybe they’re just random shapes and smiley faces.